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AllanP

Indepedence? Yes or no!

The pundits suggest that if Scots vote now in a free referendum that we should become Independent "tomorrow".
I have to ask that if this is the case, then how will Scotland manage without the support of Westminster in monetary funding for our future?

Perhaps the present Government in Scotland is pressing forward with this aspect far too soon and should be consolidating their new found position with some care without asking this question of us far too quickly and maybe should perhaps wait a while?
shagpile

Re: Indepedence? Yes or no!

AllanP wrote:
The pundits suggest that if Scots vote now in a free referendum that we should become Independent "tomorrow".
I have to ask that if this is the case, then how will Scotland manage without the support of Westminster in monetary funding for our future?


http://www.theherald.co.uk/search...y_the_third_richest_in_europe.php

The above article begs the question, How many places down the table would the 'rump of the UK' fall? Who is subsidising whom?

AllanP wrote:
Perhaps the present Government in Scotland is pressing forward with this aspect far too soon and should be consolidating their new found position with some care without asking this question of us far too quickly and maybe should perhaps wait a while?


Perhaps we should wait no longer. We can't trust Westminster to invest our wealth in our vital public services. They would much rather spend it on illegal wars.
AllanP

Perhaps we should wait no longer. We can't trust Westminster to invest our wealth in our vital public services. They would much rather spend it on illegal wars.

I'm sorry, I cannot understand just what you mean by illegal wars?

Do you perhaps mean by "illegal", that the so called wars that were voted for by democratic votes in Parliament by our elected MP's were in any way illegal? We all can be enlightened by hindsight when it causes grief, but you cannot by any stretch of anyone's imaginatation call the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq illegal.

I will however grant you that your observation into investing resouces into public services is correct though!

The Labour Government these days are retreating into a shell and trying to find some way out of it without much success.
They are now scrapping the basic rate of 10% tax which was a big plus at the time it was implemented to help the worst off earners.

It is so sad IMO that the country won't get in any way much better with a change of Government given the latest revelation about the "free range" expenses they have been given in the past.

Blood suckers!
All of them. But realistically what can you do?
Don't vote! Vote for another! It doesn't make any difference.
I have many times in the past invited so called politicians to answer here without any replies.
It just shows how much they really care for we common folk until election time comes along when it's all smiles and kiss babies time.

BASTARDS!
shagpile

AllanP wrote:
I'm sorry, I cannot understand just what you mean by illegal wars?


Tony Blair had the same problem mate, I shouldn't worry  

AllanP wrote:
Do you perhaps mean by "illegal", that the so called wars that were voted for by democratic votes in Parliament by our elected MP's were in any way illegal?


Afghanistan no. Iraq, yes. According to The UN Secretary General. Also the original advice by the UK Attorney General.

The UK Parliament has difficulty passing domestic UK Tax legislation which is actually "legal", so the democratic vote bit; I'm afraid, is a red herring. Yet you do bring up the point that the parliament voted to endorse the PMs descision to go to war. They did this because they were lied to by the PM, and 'whipped' into the lobbies, like the self serving 'Lobby Fodder' that they clearly are.

AllanP wrote:
We all can be enlightened by hindsight when it causes grief, but you cannot by any stretch of anyone's imaginatation call the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq illegal.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news...-year-before-invasion-478781.html

AllanP wrote:
I will however grant you that your observation into investing resouces into public services is correct though!

The Labour Government these days are retreating into a shell and trying to find some way out of it without much success.
They are now scrapping the basic rate of 10% tax which was a big plus at the time it was implemented to help the worst off earners.

It is so sad IMO that the country won't get in any way much better with a change of Government given the latest revelation about the "free range" expenses they have been given in the past.


Not only do they not understand International Law (and ignorance of the law is NO defence in court). They cannot do the math's on this one. Scrapping the 10% rate will raise £8.6 billion, cutting the 22% rate by 2% will cost £9.6 billion, and according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies those earning between £5435 and £18500 will lose out.

AllanP wrote:
Blood suckers!
All of them. But realistically what can you do?
Don't vote! Vote for another! It doesn't make any difference.


It's starting to make a difference Allan, but you can't quickly change the views of the electorate over night. The up-side is also true, the electorate take a long time to forgive and forget. Ask any Tory in Scotland, and Neo Liebour are following them into that abyss north of the border.

AllanP wrote:
I have many times in the past invited so called politicians to answer here without any replies.


Paxo is supposed to be so bloomin' brill, but in reality he's just another establishment backing psudo interlect IMHO.

I would really love to be in his place, just for once.

I share your sentiments 100% there mate. But don't get mad, get even!
Vote out the scum.
AllanP

I share your sentiments 100% there mate. But don't get mad, get even!
Vote out the scum.

Sadly it only means others insensitive to the people's wishes, get in!
Des

What I would like to know & ask the forum, is why are we so apathetic when it comes to politics..
Look around the world & in most countries when the people feel strongly enough they can actually facilitate a change of government or at least a change of policy, yet here in the UK we accept it (Poll Tax riots & a few others being the exception) & take whats given to us..

Even this so-called economic crunch is in part a self-fulfilling prophecy that the media has perpetrated & of course the banks & lending organizations get sucked into it & hey presto a recession is a looming   ...

PS Yes to independence but not at the cost of truth
Bill McLaughlin

I've always seen Independence as a process, an ideal to aim for to bring us in line with most of the modern world.

Scotland should have it's own Independent Government. Questions as to who is subsidising who are raised, not because they actually have any bearing on the future, but simply as an obstacle raised by those opposed.

It's no wonder we are apathetic when for example during the 'Maggie' years and previously we put up with Westinster administrations that the majority of Scottish people never voted for.
Whichever party we get is at the behest of our cousins in another country.

Devolution is basically a system to give us a grant to spend and the actual amount still depends on Westminster.
As a country we can only spend it and be criticised for that, time we had the responsibility of raising our own revenues.

If we want Independence we have to vote for it, time to move on.
Zaf

Personally (as one of the dreaded English    ) I believe its time that the people of Scotland should have the right to decide whether they want full independence or not.  

I may be wrong but when (and if) that decision is taken thats the time to start crossing the t's and dotting the i's?

oh,  and could I please have an honorary Scottish passport when the time comes?  
Woodside Wullie

There was once a day, but old Time wasythen young,
That brave Caledonia, the chief of her line,
From some of your northern deities sprung,
(Who knows not that brave Caledonia's divine?)
From Tweed to the Orcades was her domain,
To hunt, or to pasture, or do what she would:
Her heav'nly relations there fixed her reign,
And pledg'd her their godheads to warrant it good.

Thus bold, independent, unconquer'd, and free,
Her bright course of glory for ever shall run:
For brave Caledonia immortal must be;
I'll prove it from Euclid as clear as the sun:
Rectangle-triangle, the figure we'll chuse:
The upright is Chance, and old Time is the base;
But brave Caledonia's the hypothenuse;
Then, ergo, she'll match them, and match them always..

Robert Burns- Caledonia

(zaf, if my paternal grunnie hidnae left london for aiberdeen; I widnae be here.)
shagpile

Zaf wrote:
Personally (as one of the dreaded English    ) I believe its time that the people of Scotland should have the right to decide whether they want full independence or not.  

I may be wrong but when (and if) that decision is taken thats the time to start crossing the t's and dotting the i's?

oh,  and could I please have an honorary Scottish passport when the time comes?  


I don't regard the English as 'the dreaded English'. There are lots of bigots north of the border; and south of the border too for that matter, but decent people see that sort of nonsense for what it is and my life experience tells me that that latter is the majority (thankfully).

There's nothing honorable about an accident of birth, so a full passport would be available. You have to come and claim it though.......... so what you waitin' for Zaf?
shagpile

Des wrote:
What I would like to know & ask the forum, is why are we so apathetic when it comes to politics..


I don't believe it's apathy Des, I believe it's utter lazyness. That combined; to some degree, with the class system. The belief that better people must know better than me, so to speak. FFS! Polotics is about oppinion! Governments can only serve us, if we tell them what we want. In our psudo democracy, polititions tell us what we're thinking rather than us telling them what WE ARE thinking. First to go should be FPTP and the landslide government it brings, even though they get fewer votes than the 'elected oposition'!
shagpile

Bill McLaughlin wrote:
I've always seen Independence as a process, an ideal to aim for to bring us in line with most of the modern world.

Scotland should have it's own Independent Government. Questions as to who is subsidising who are raised, not because they actually have any bearing on the future, but simply as an obstacle raised by those opposed.

It's no wonder we are apathetic when for example during the 'Maggie' years and previously we put up with Westinster administrations that the majority of Scottish people never voted for.
Whichever party we get is at the behest of our cousins in another country.

Devolution is basically a system to give us a grant to spend and the actual amount still depends on Westminster.
As a country we can only spend it and be criticised for that, time we had the responsibility of raising our own revenues.

If we want Independence we have to vote for it, time to move on.


Yep.
Zaf

shagpile wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Personally (as one of the dreaded English    ) I believe its time that the people of Scotland should have the right to decide whether they want full independence or not.  

I may be wrong but when (and if) that decision is taken thats the time to start crossing the t's and dotting the i's?

oh,  and could I please have an honorary Scottish passport when the time comes?  


I don't regard the English as 'the dreaded English'. There are lots of bigots north of the border; and south of the border too for that matter, but decent people see that sort of nonsense for what it is and my life experience tells me that that latter is the majority (thankfully).

There's nothing honorable about an accident of birth, so a full passport would be available. You have to come and claim it though.......... so what you waitin' for Zaf?


I come up to God's Country on average once a year so just notify me when its ready and I'll be there to pick it up  
rickyross3359

The very fact that at present John Swinney, the Finance minister has to go down to Westminister to ask for the cash which is rightlyful Scotlands under the existing funding is beyond me.  The rest of the UK got extra funding for the Prisons problem so why is Labour in London withholding it from Scotland?  Can it be the dislike of a SNP government in Scotland?
You can rest assured that the Westminister government will attempt any practise foul or fair to destablize an SNP run Scottish government.

As for independence it can't come quick enough, but even if we voted for it in a referendum it wouldn't happen tomorrow.  It would take a lot of time for Scotland to negociate on all sorts of things such as defence, welfare and revenues.  They may well bleat on about black holes but scaremongering wont do.
AllanP

rickyross3359 wrote:
The very fact that at present John Swinney, the Finance minister has to go down to Westminister to ask for the cash which is rightlyful Scotlands under the existing funding is beyond me.  The rest of the UK got extra funding for the Prisons problem so why is Labour in London withholding it from Scotland?  Can it be the dislike of a SNP government in Scotland?
You can rest assured that the Westminister government will attempt any practise foul or fair to destablize an SNP run Scottish government.

As for independence it can't come quick enough, but even if we voted for it in a referendum it wouldn't happen tomorrow.  It would take a lot of time for Scotland to negociate on all sorts of things such as defence, welfare and revenues.  They may well bleat on about black holes but scaremongering wont do.


I hear what you say, but I must ask you this - If Scotland does become independent, we will have to rely on our own funding, not Westminster's handout's.
Is it possible or indeed feasable to assume that we would not be able to achieve monetery funding for all our wants and needs without some sort of help as we do now?
I have asked this sort of question more than once now without any reply from any SNP MSP. No doubt they don't bother looking at this or any other Scottish forums or cannot formulate an honest answer.
They are maybe too busy claiming expenses from us via Hollyrood for second home expenses, much like the English MP'S do so at Westminster to their eternal shame.
Bill McLaughlin

Part of the deal for an Independent country is that it can look after itself.

Some do it more successfully than others and I have no qualms about Scotland being self sufficient in whatever context that means nowadays.

Monetary wealth is not a measure of whether a Country can or should govern itself.

If bad debt was a measure of being deserving of independence then at least half of the 160 Nations that gained Independence in the last hundred years or so would never have gone down that road.

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