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Bigman

9/11, do you believe the official story?

In plane sight

IMHO, the whole thing is suspect, the most secure building in the world and 5 frames of a dodgy security camera to record an airliner going in? (and not seeing an airliner going in)

Suspect flashes as the aircraft hit the twin towers?

Pods attached to belly of the 757 that hit the second tower?  

Eyewitnesses saying the planes did not have windows and did not look like commercial airliners?

Eyewitnesses (Fifefighters, police, reporters, people at the scene) hearing 'bombs' going off as the buildings collapsed?

Building 7 'collapsing' into a neat heap 8 hours later and the owner of the world trade centre complex telling reporters that building 7 had to be 'pulled' (demolished)  8 hours later???

A 757 'disappearing' into a hole in the ground in Pennsylvania? (Flight 93)

Flight 93 turning up an hour an half later at an airport in Cleaveland?


If a guy in a cave in Afghanistan can do that with a few guys with box cutters (who incidently most have been seen post 9/11 living happily in Saudi Arabia)) to the most defended, heavilly protected country on the planet what chance have we got?

Smells like sh*te to me!
Xcotty

There is definately more to this, than we have been told.
It'll come out eventually though, always does.
Des

Nope dont believe it..

On Paltalk there are rooms dedicated to 9/11 & some of the folk that comment on this terrible happening claim that they are being watched, that their mail is intercepted & that they have been approached by unknown people & threatened with imprisonment if they dont stop digging..

Now of course some of them will just be paranoid but on the other hand there will be some truth to these claims..
One other thing i heard was that all the gold that was usually kept in the vaults below the WTC buildings was transferred out two weeks before but the owners claim that it was lost in the collapse..
Does anybody know the melting point for gold???  
Bigman

The melting point for gold is: 1064.43 °C (1337.5801 K, 1947.9741 °F)
Boiling Point: 2807.0 °C (3080.15 K, 5084.6 °F)

Even if it did melt, it wouldn't vapourize and the melted gold would be easilly found.
shagpile

There are too many conspiracies around 9/11 which have not been sufficiently debunked IMHO.

http://www.sundayherald.com/searc...n_towers_on_september_11_2001.php

Did MOSSAD know of the pending attack and not tell the Americans, or had they inadvertently stumbled on the US polt?

The bottom line is they were there to record the imminent attack on the Twin Towers.
AllanP

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

Bigman wrote:
In plane sight

IMHO, the whole thing is suspect, the most secure building in the world and 5 frames of a dodgy security camera to record an airliner going in? (and not seeing an airliner going in)

Suspect flashes as the aircraft hit the twin towers?

Pods attached to belly of the 757 that hit the second tower?  

Eyewitnesses saying the planes did not have windows and did not look like commercial airliners?

Eyewitnesses (Fifefighters, police, reporters, people at the scene) hearing 'bombs' going off as the buildings collapsed?

Building 7 'collapsing' into a neat heap 8 hours later and the owner of the world trade centre complex telling reporters that building 7 had to be 'pulled' (demolished)  8 hours later???

A 757 'disappearing' into a hole in the ground in Pennsylvania? (Flight 93)

Flight 93 turning up an hour an half later at an airport in Cleaveland?


If a guy in a cave in Afghanistan can do that with a few guys with box cutters (who incidently most have been seen post 9/11 living happily in Saudi Arabia)) to the most defended, heavilly protected country on the planet what chance have we got?

Smells like sh*te to me!


Maybe you think that we educated folk cannot believe that some arab choggie's cannot eventually devise a plan on a massive scale to cause havoc on the west by killing masses of human beings by flying aeroplanes into tagetted buildings.
These people are every bit like us, except that they are fanatically driven with no principles about sufering and human life.
They have all the skills of we human beings to learn, think and devise a totally new plan to cause the maximum attention to their grievances against western influence.
I saw this happening live on TV at the time, and it was REAL.
Shame on you if you think that this was anything but!
Des

We all saw it happen on TV but that doesnt mean that there wasnt some shady stuff going on..
Certain senators where warned not to fly that day,the gold going missing,fireman reporting hearing explosions going off in the towers..
Come on, this may have started out as a terror attack but the American intelligence agencies had prior knowledge that this was going to take place & contributed to it knowing full well that all the blame would fall on the terrorists..
This also gave Bush the excuse to go into Afghanistan & Iraq under the guise of a war against terror when really it was & is about BLACK GOLD
shagpile

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

AllanP wrote:
Maybe you think that we educated folk cannot believe that some arab choggie's cannot eventually devise a plan on a massive scale to cause havoc on the west by killing masses of human beings by flying aeroplanes into tagetted buildings.
These people are every bit like us, except that they are fanatically driven with no principles about sufering and human life.
They have all the skills of we human beings to learn, think and devise a totally new plan to cause the maximum attention to their grievances against western influence.
I saw this happening live on TV at the time, and it was REAL.


Do you think that I'm uneducated because I hold a different view?

AllanP wrote:
Shame on you if you think that this was anything but!


I do not blindly subscribe to the widely held view that the government, any government would not do such a thing to their own people. The incontrovertable proof is that they have done in the past. Hitler's Germany for one. And the Brits..... Christmas Island.

and there's this:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/facul...20Tuskegee%20Syphilis%20Study.htm

Just the very thing these people faught in a war for to prevent. They can still do this though, if they have presidential approval!
Cailean

Xcotty wrote:
There is definately more to this, than we have been told.
It'll come out eventually though, always does.


Aye, Xcotty - like we all know who shot JFK in 1963  
maria143

I saw it happen on TV...All the line busy because people were trying to get ahold of family...It was shocking watching people throw themselves off the roof and the windows of the twin towers...calls coming on the news of family members saying good bye and what he was intending to do with other passengers when they fought with the highjackers crashing into the mountains...

It was very hard on everybody...My Managers brother worked in front of the twin towers...his windows got blown in...

It was a hideaous show of power...Yeah I do believe it happened...
Xcotty

Cailean wrote:
Xcotty wrote:
There is definately more to this, than we have been told.
It'll come out eventually though, always does.


Aye, Xcotty - like we all know who shot JFK in 1963  


Yip Cailean, I know what your saying pal.
But even that is bound to come out eventually.
Bill McLaughlin

I suppose it is too easy to believe that 9/11 was a terrorist attack on the US?

Lots of the so called conspiracies appear to me to be invented by the 'conspiracy buffs', who then go looking for evidence to back up their theory.

The normal way to look at these things is to see what actually happened then look for the evidence as to who, why, and when.

Conspiracies take the back to front route every time find a who why and when, then fit that into their theory.

Has anybody actualy met any of those people making these calims, apart form the 'I know a man that knew a man that heard..............."
Guest

Go to Radio 4>listen again>3.30 pm today...a story about the FBI and 9/11!

Geez!
Des

maria143 wrote:
I saw it happen on TV...All the line busy because people were trying to get ahold of family...It was shocking watching people throw themselves off the roof and the windows of the twin towers...calls coming on the news of family members saying good bye and what he was intending to do with other passengers when they fought with the highjackers crashing into the mountains...

It was very hard on everybody...My Managers brother worked in front of the twin towers...his windows got blown in...

It was a hideaous show of power...Yeah I do believe it happened...


There is no denying that it happened Maria, I know exactly where i was when the news came through..
I was in my Mums back yard tidying up for the coming winter & was listening to the radio & the horror of it all was still unfolding..
What a lot of people believe & I include my self in that is the belief that certain agencies in the USA knew that there was going to be a terrorist attack & they used that knowledge for their own gain regardless of the human cost..
There are too many anomalies regarding 9/11
AllanP

Bill McLaughlin wrote:
I suppose it is too easy to believe that 9/11 was a terrorist attack on the US?

Lots of the so called conspiracies appear to me to be invented by the 'conspiracy buffs', who then go looking for evidence to back up their theory.

The normal way to look at these things is to see what actually happened then look for the evidence as to who, why, and when.

Conspiracies take the back to front route every time find a who why and when, then fit that into their theory.

Has anybody actualy met any of those people making these calims, apart form the 'I know a man that knew a man that heard..............."


I have to agree with your above comments.

There are only a very few misguided individuals who have imagined an ulterior motive and secret governmental tinkering into the acts that we the sane majority saw happening on TV at that sad time.

How anybody could say that we all saw a US "conspiracy" is to say the least surprising, and to say the most "lunacy".

They might at least have hinted that perhaps it was aliens trying to take over the planet!
We trekkie's might well have understood that scenario at least, and sent "Star ship Enterprise" to sort them out.
shagpile

How long did it take for the twin towers to collapse? A golf ball dropped at from the roof would hit the ground at the same time as the roof it was dropped from.

Both towers collapsed identically, despite being hit in different places.

Building 7 collapsed in the same fashon, some 3 blocks away from the WTC. It was not hit by a plane.

Do you want to talk about the Pentagon too? Did you see a plane hit it?

I really wish people would look at the film, or google 'loose change' and just answer the questions asked in the films. THEN TELL US!...... Bet you can't!
Merak

somebody remind me again of what the point of purposely bring down the WTC was.
Xcotty

They were blocking the sun from that Bush fella's eyes.

Honest.
shagpile

Merak wrote:
somebody remind me again of what the point of purposely bring down the WTC was.


Several. The points are made in both the documentaries I referred to. But you have to wach them  
AllanP

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

shagpile wrote:
AllanP wrote:
Maybe you think that we educated folk cannot believe that some arab choggie's cannot eventually devise a plan on a massive scale to cause havoc on the west by killing masses of human beings by flying aeroplanes into tagetted buildings.
These people are every bit like us, except that they are fanatically driven with no principles about sufering and human life.
They have all the skills of we human beings to learn, think and devise a totally new plan to cause the maximum attention to their grievances against western influence.
I saw this happening live on TV at the time, and it was REAL.


Do you think that I'm uneducated because I hold a different view?

AllanP wrote:
Shame on you if you think that this was anything but!


I do not blindly subscribe to the widely held view that the government, any government would not do such a thing to their own people. The incontrovertable proof is that they have done in the past. Hitler's Germany for one. And the Brits..... Christmas Island.

and there's this:

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/facul...20Tuskegee%20Syphilis%20Study.htm

Just the very thing these people faught in a war for to prevent. They can still do this though, if they have presidential approval!


So therefore, by your own admission, you don't believe anything about 9/11 and what actually happened and it was all a big conspiracy or a con?

You, I'm sorry to say, should get out and about a bit more and enjoy yourself before judgement day comes and bites your sad arse.
AllanP

Merak wrote:
somebody remind me again of what the point of purposely bring down the WTC was.


In a sentence:- It was to try to weaken or destroy the western economy by terrorists, and it worked for a short time.

Now conspiracy theorist's are furthering their cause by saying it was planned by the yanks!
We all don't beleive that crap!!!!
maria143

I don't believe it either Allan...You know how many people lost their homes...jobs because company were closing down...The stock market OMG...I lost a bundle there....

I'm sorry I know it was worse for the victims and the family memebers....
shagpile

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

AllanP wrote:
So therefore, by your own admission, you don't believe anything about 9/11 and what actually happened and it was all a big conspiracy or a con?


Allan, can I just ask you if you've watched the documentaries? It sounds like you haven't. I don't know what happened 9/11. It's just my oppinion is that the evedence does not fully concur with the official view.

IMHO the speed in wich the towers collapsed in that vertical manner; even though they were designed to withstand fire and aircraft collision. Did resemble controlled demolition. The undamaged unburning floors below the impact did not even slow nor impede in any way the collapse.

AllanP wrote:
You, I'm sorry to say,


No you're not!

AlllanP wrote:
should get out and about a bit more and enjoy yourself before judgement day comes and bites your sad arse.


Well thanks for your concern, but when that day comes there will be no conspiracy...... or maybe there will!  
AllanP

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

shagpile wrote:
AllanP wrote:
So therefore, by your own admission, you don't believe anything about 9/11 and what actually happened and it was all a big conspiracy or a con?


Allan, can I just ask you if you've watched the documentaries? It sounds like you haven't. I don't know what happened 9/11. It's just my oppinion is that the evedence does not fully concur with the official view.

IMHO the speed in wich the towers collapsed in that vertical manner; even though they were designed to withstand fire and aircraft collision. Did resemble controlled demolition. The undamaged unburning floors below the impact did not even slow nor impede in any way the collapse.

AllanP wrote:
You, I'm sorry to say,


No you're not!

AlllanP wrote:
should get out and about a bit more and enjoy yourself before judgement day comes and bites your sad arse.


Well thanks for your concern, but when that day comes there will be no conspiracy...... or maybe there will!  


Yes, I watched the documentary, and it also hinted that although the towers were indeed fireproof, the later investigation apparently showed that the main supports of the building which went up all sides to the top were weakened by the extreme temperature of the fires at point of impact which caused the deck of cards collapse due to the mass and weight of the building.
Normal fires, winds, and earthquakes had been taken into account during the building stressing factors, but not an impact of a missile strike which a plane loaded with fuel was very much similar to.
You must admit surely that even a small tactical missile would have caused very much the same effect.
To add on an apology to you anyway. Sorry I got on to you for your own honest opinion.
There are far too many conspiracy theorists around these days to be entirely helpful to us all here in the west.
But I do respect your opinion.
I trust you will respect mine and many others too.
shagpile

Re: 9/11, do you believe the official story?

AllanP wrote:
Yes, I watched the documentary, and it also hinted that although the towers were indeed fireproof, the later investigation apparently showed that the main supports of the building which went up all sides to the top were weakened by the extreme temperature of the fires at point of impact which caused the deck of cards collapse due to the mass and weight of the building.


Allan, temperatures which were so extreme to seriously weaken the structural steel, yet not extreme enough to prevent a Fire Chief attending the burning floors and transmitting a plan to extinguish the fires? And uniform enough to simultaneously weaken all surrounding walls resulting in each wall collapsing at the same moment in time, even though one of the planes only hit a corner of one Tower? Most of the fuel ignited in a fireball outside of the structures. What was left inside the towers to sustain and grow the temeratures for almost an hour to seriously weaken the steal?

AllanP wrote:
Normal fires, winds, and earthquakes had been taken into account during the building stressing factors, but not an impact of a missile strike which a plane loaded with fuel was very much similar to.
You must admit surely that even a small tactical missile would have caused very much the same effect.


Can I say again Allan that the Towers were designed to withstand an aircraft collision. The Empire State Building, never was designed to withstand aircraft collision, yet it survived being hit by a B52, lost in fog, and burned for longer. It's funny (not funny ha ha) that you mention a missile hitting the building though, in "Loose Change", the second plane which hits, appears to 'fire a missile', moments before impact. Remember, every man and his dog was filming this by the time of the second attack.

On all the footage of the collapses (it is claimed) explosions can be seen all the way down the towers, preceeding each collapsing floor.

AllanP wrote:
To add on an apology to you anyway. Sorry I got on to you for your own honest opinion.
There are far too many conspiracy theorists around these days to be entirely helpful to us all here in the west.
But I do respect your opinion.
I trust you will respect mine and many others too.


Not to cause you offence Allan, I accept your appology even though I don't believe you needed to offer one. In normal conversations, there is body language, gestures etc which aid conversation. On a forum, unfortunately none of these are present. Can you imagine, for instance us coming to blows in a pub for the few sentances we've exchanged thus far? So why should teddy come right out of the cot in cyber world?  

I do respect the oppinion of others, even if it doesn't sound like it at times, believe me it's only my own frustration.   And please don't think I'm trying to convert you into a "conspiracist", I used to be firmly of your oppinion, but now, as I've said, these conspiracy theories around 9/11 have not been sufficiently debunked. For example, why release only 5 frames of a plane hitting the pentagon (where there's no sign of a plane), unless more frames released would show something else?

I've just recently become aware though on this:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bbc_wtc7_videos.html

The BBC reported the collapse of WTC7, 20 mins before it collapsed, and then amazingly lost all the footage of the report.
Des

This is a tad off topic but as its related to terror so I feel this is justified

There were four young Asian guys that parked here up earlier today,jumped straight out of the car & were very deliberate where they took their photos on the beach here
They could have walked straight ahead onto the beach but walked out of their way to a spot facing the power station on the mainland & their behavior was extremely suspect so I noted their registration,make & model of car & phoned the old bill..
Where I live there is a lot of shipping traffic,including lots of Royal Navy ships & subs coming & going so safe than sorry is my motto..
I could be wrong & if I am no harm done but given the climate of terror that exists I feel that I did the right thing..
Would I have done the same if it was 4 white lads?, probably not but its not them that are fighting a jihad & bombing all around the world in the name of religion...
Infact the old bill have just popped into see me regarding it
shagpile

Des wrote:
This is a tad off topic but as its related to terror so I feel this is justified

There were four young Asian guys that parked here up earlier today,jumped straight out of the car & were very deliberate where they took their photos on the beach here
They could have walked straight ahead onto the beach but walked out of their way to a spot facing the power station on the mainland & their behavior was extremely suspect so I noted their registration,make & model of car & phoned the old bill..
Where I live there is a lot of shipping traffic,including lots of Royal Navy ships & subs coming & going so safe than sorry is my motto..
I could be wrong & if I am no harm done but given the climate of terror that exists I feel that I did the right thing..
Would I have done the same if it was 4 white lads?, probably not but its not them that are fighting a jihad & bombing all around the world in the name of religion...
Infact the old bill have just popped into see me regarding it


Des, I was in the RAF, early 80s. The general feeling was that anyone who spoke with an Irish accent was a potential terrorist back then. It's a good job you can actually spot them now    Seriously though, anyone who sees something suspicious should report it, Asian, Black, White or whatever.

And don't believe for one minute that we're all about to be blown up. You're much safer smoking 500 cigs a day, and drinking 10 pints of lager, but not whilst driving of course!  
Des

Point taken Shag but there was something not quite right about these guys & apparently the old bill received several calls regarding their behavior..
I dont believe for one minute that every Asian is a potential terrorist just as every Irish person wasnt in the IRA but I do believe that every politician that opens his or her mouth is lying  
shagpile

Des wrote:
Point taken Shag but there was something not quite right about these guys & apparently the old bill received several calls regarding their behavior..


If they were up to no good sorted! Well done for your vigilance. I believe it's always a difficult call to make, ie ah somebody else will call or maybe they'll think I'm being a 'busy body'.

Des wrote:
I dont believe for one minute that every Asian is a potential terrorist just as every Irish person wasnt in the IRA but I do believe that every politician that opens his or her mouth is lying  


Glad you understood the point I was making mate. Include your last sentance and I can definately say we agree.  
Des

Yeah I wasn't sure if I should call or not but something just wasn't right so I did what had to be done..
Was it justified? well im still not sure but il find out from one of the local bobbies what happened & let you know..
Merak

AllanP wrote:
Merak wrote:
somebody remind me again of what the point of purposely bring down the WTC was.


In a sentence:- It was to try to weaken or destroy the western economy by terrorists, and it worked for a short time.

Now conspiracy theorist's are furthering their cause by saying it was planned by the yanks!
We all don't beleive that crap!!!!


yep.. but that's not quite what I meant though... I meant what would be the point of the US Gov bringing down the world trade centre?  
shagpile

Des wrote:
Yeah I wasn't sure if I should call or not but something just wasn't right so I did what had to be done..
Was it justified? well im still not sure but il find out from one of the local bobbies what happened & let you know..


If you have concens Des it's always justified  
shagpile

Merak wrote:
yep.. but that's not quite what I meant though... I meant what would be the point of the US Gov bringing down the world trade centre?  


It provided a justification for the invasions of Afganistan and Iraq. WTC7 contained thousands of files on FBI investigations into corruption. The Towers were 'white elephants', it would have been cheaper to rebuild than completely upgrade and modernise. The 'hawks' in the establishment needed a cataclismic event, like a new Pearl Harbour to further their agenda. The events also increased the powers of the president at the same time as reducing civil liberties. Not to mention the oil of course. However, this is only some of the motives alleged in the documentaries. What's your views?
Des

I heard somewhere that the person/persons that owned the WTC wanted to bring it down as in demolish it but that it was cost prohibitive due to its location..So when the security agencies heard about a plot to hijack planes & fly them into into it they got together with the owner/owners & hatched a plot to plant explosive devices in the building that would go off at the time of impact helping to bring them down..
Also why where certain government officials sent emails warning them not to fly on the specific day on certain flights & airlines..
Ok so some of this is probably paranoia but the old adage of smoke & fire is true..
I believe that shadowy government people where involved even though the original bombers where terrorists..
Did George Bush know? maybe, can he string a decent sentence together? NO
Merak

shagpile wrote:
Merak wrote:
yep.. but that's not quite what I meant though... I meant what would be the point of the US Gov bringing down the world trade centre?  


It provided a justification for the invasions of Afganistan and Iraq. WTC7 contained thousands of files on FBI investigations into corruption. The Towers were 'white elephants', it would have been cheaper to rebuild than completely upgrade and modernise. The 'hawks' in the establishment needed a cataclismic event, like a new Pearl Harbour to further their agenda. The events also increased the powers of the president at the same time as reducing civil liberties. Not to mention the oil of course. However, this is only some of the motives alleged in the documentaries. What's your views?


So it was a combination of an insurance job and the green light to go to war?  Na. As much as I like a good conspiracy theory... I'm not buying any of that.
AllanP

Des wrote:
This is a tad off topic but as its related to terror so I feel this is justified

There were four young Asian guys that parked here up earlier today,jumped straight out of the car & were very deliberate where they took their photos on the beach here
They could have walked straight ahead onto the beach but walked out of their way to a spot facing the power station on the mainland & their behavior was extremely suspect so I noted their registration,make & model of car & phoned the old bill..
Where I live there is a lot of shipping traffic,including lots of Royal Navy ships & subs coming & going so safe than sorry is my motto..
I could be wrong & if I am no harm done but given the climate of terror that exists I feel that I did the right thing..
Would I have done the same if it was 4 white lads?, probably not but its not them that are fighting a jihad & bombing all around the world in the name of religion...
Infact the old bill have just popped into see me regarding it


Good for you Des!
I stay near to the large refinery complex in Grangemouth and I hope that folk there are as vigilant as you are and not scared to be safe rather than sorry when seeing anything untoward.
shagpile

Merak wrote:
So it was a combination of an insurance job and the green light to go to war?  Na. As much as I like a good conspiracy theory... I'm not buying any of that.


You asked a theoretical question and fair enough, I posted some theories why. Shock horror Merak, your response to my answer was predictable! So you don't buy any of that, also fair enough, but as I obliged your theories, perhaps you would be kind enough to post an explanation to some facts.

Would the US have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq had it not been for 9/11?

Of the 19 hi-jackers the FBI said were responsible for the attacks, how were the BBC and The Guardian able to interview 5 of them alive and well?

Why is OBL not wanted by the FBI in connection to the terror plot?

Why are WT1, WT2 and WT7, the only modern buildings to completely collapse due to fires?

Can you explain why the BBC has 'lost' all of their footage of their report on the collapse of WT7 20 minutes before the building fell?

Can you explain why MOSSAD agents; who filmed the complete attacks on WT1 &WT2 were arrested, detained and interrogated by the FBI. Were released and deported without charge, and later admitted on Israeli TV that they were there to record the attacks!

Why were residues of demolition explosives later found at Ground Zero?

Why did the buildings collapse at 'free fall speed?

The Pentagon:

How could fires so intense to vapourise almost a complete aircraft leave bodies to be identified? Ive never heard anyone working in a crematorium claim (btw) that the furnace was hot enough to burn the coffin, but not the body inside. Have you?

How did the engine and undercarrage parts recovered from inside the pentagon actually get there? Maybe you can ask someone who puts ships inside bottles to explain that one, 'cause I can't. The official story is they got there through the 16' hole left by the fuselage!

On the 5 frames released by the US government, did you see an aircraft hit the pentagon?

Well that's some stuff to be going on with. I have more questions that require answers.

I do not believe the official version of events, like I've said, I don't know what happeneed on 9/11. Too much unbelievable stuff to be believed.......... so can you help me or not?
Des

Regarding the plane crashing into the Pentagon..The service station next to the Pentagon had a CCTV pointed towards the building exactly where the plane "allegedly" hit..

Men in Black turned up at the service station in question & removed said footage & no film footage has ever been seen on TV that shows a jet aircraft crashing into the Pentagon..

We have all seen pictures of a small object hitting the building but no plane & also why if a plane hit this place did it not take out lamp-post on its flightpath?, because if indeed a plane did hit then these posts would have been taken out by the wings..

Somebody somewhere f****d up badly me thinks....

As I have said before, no one doubts that planes where flown into the WTC but to bring them crashing down would take more than that, they where built to withstand a small nuclear device going off or 10 on the Richter magnitude scale of earthquakes..
Merak

shagpile wrote:
Merak wrote:
So it was a combination of an insurance job and the green light to go to war?  Na. As much as I like a good conspiracy theory... I'm not buying any of that.


You asked a theoretical question and fair enough, I posted some theories why. Shock horror Merak, your response to my answer was predictable! So you don't buy any of that, also fair enough, but as I obliged your theories, perhaps you would be kind enough to post an explanation to some facts.

I do not believe the official version of events, like I've said, I don't know what happeneed on 9/11. Too much unbelievable stuff to be believed.......... so can you help me or not?


Nope. Can't help. i don't know enough about it either. But what I dont' believe is that the US gov flew planes into the WTC, then brought the towers down using explosives as an insurance job/excuse to go to war with afghanistan.
Jamrie

While most people are of the opinion that the 9/11 attacks were the work of Al-Qaeda, others are thinking that it was a plot by the US to exploit chaos and push it's own political agenda, thereby giving a reason to invade Afghanistan.........So what are we to believe?

Frankly I am convinced that it was all down to Al-Qaeda, they had already attacked US interests in East Africa and North Africa.
The US government repeatedly requested the Taliban government to take action and close the terrorist training camps which were now operating with impunity in that country, and to hand him (bin-Laden) over.
This was well before the 9/11 attacks. So they already had justification for invading Afghanistan.

I have watched videos and read various theories of alternative scenarios that could have brought down the towers, but I am still of the opinion that it was caused only by aircraft flying into them.

I remember watching a tv programe on the same subject; a group of scientists and engineers were asked what they thought of the towers coming down so fast, and they were all of the same opinion that as they hadn't come across anything like this before they could only theorise. Firstly saying that the weight of the aircraft which was fully laden with fuel would firstly weaken the structure above thereby causing it to collapse like a pack of cards.

As for the rest of what happened, especially at the Pentagon, I have no answer, but I do disregard theories such as holograms and such like, which I've read about on other websites.
This subject has appeared on the Sky News blogs (now defunct) and I found that the majority of the Middle East bloggers wanted this to be an American plot, because they couldn't identify themselves with these atrocious acts as being work of their fellow Muslims.

I'm sure that there are still a lot of questions to be answered, but untill someone can come up with proof of US involvement then I shall remain blaming the Al-Qaeda regime.
shagpile

Des wrote:
We have all seen pictures of a small object hitting the building but no plane & also why if a plane hit this place did it not take out lamp-post on its flightpath?, because if indeed a plane did hit then these posts would have been taken out by the wings..

Somebody somewhere f****d up badly me thinks...


Des, I used to be in the RAF and worked on aircraft. I can't remember one instance of a plane having sustained a 'bird strike' and the pilot not reporting 'handling' to be uneffected; other than a negligable impact ofcourse.

For an aircraft to fly into the pentagon through a 'flock' of lamposts is impossible IMHO.

I've read debunking stuff on this on the 'net re this. It does not add up.
shagpile

Merak wrote:
Nope. Can't help. i don't know enough about it either. But what I dont' believe is that the US gov flew planes into the WTC, then brought the towers down using explosives as an insurance job/excuse to go to war with afghanistan.


Fair dues, but can I ask you Merak, have you watched 'Loose Change'?

I used to be of the oppinion these were all terrorist attacks, now I have serious misgivings because of questions the film raises. The reason I ask if you have watched 'Loose Change' is you don't have any difficulty in believing, frankly, the unbelievable.
shagpile

Jamrie wrote:
While most people are of the opinion that the 9/11 attacks were the work of Al-Qaeda, others are thinking that it was a plot by the US to exploit chaos and push it's own political agenda, thereby giving a reason to invade Afghanistan.........So what are we to believe?


Exactly!

Jamrie wrote:
Frankly I am convinced that it was all down to Al-Qaeda, they had already attacked US interests in East Africa and North Africa.
The US government repeatedly requested the Taliban government to take action and close the terrorist training camps which were now operating with impunity in that country, and to hand him (bin-Laden) over.
This was well before the 9/11 attacks. So they already had justification for invading Afghanistan.


Firstly, I don't discount Al-Qaeda. As I've said above, why were MOSAD agents there ready to record the attack? Why not inform their closest ally of this imminent attack?

Secondly, OBL was trained by the CIA. Why is he not wanted by the FBI for the terror attack?

Jamrie wrote:
I have watched videos and read various theories of alternative scenarios that could have brought down the towers, but I am still of the opinion that it was caused only by aircraft flying into them.

I remember watching a tv programe on the same subject; a group of scientists and engineers were asked what they thought of the towers coming down so fast, and they were all of the same opinion that as they hadn't come across anything like this before they could only theorise. Firstly saying that the weight of the aircraft which was fully laden with fuel would firstly weaken the structure above thereby causing it to collapse like a pack of cards.


At the time as I watched the Towers fall on the news, I remember thinking how fortunate it was that the Towers collapsed the way they did as the death toll could have been much higher. I also watched a documentary which explained how the towers collapsed and I thought again how we were fortunate that it was such a 'dodgy' design!

Jamrie wrote:
As for the rest of what happened, especially at the Pentagon, I have no answer, but I do disregard theories such as holograms and such like, which I've read about on other websites.
This subject has appeared on the Sky News blogs (now defunct) and I found that the majority of the Middle East bloggers wanted this to be an American plot, because they couldn't identify themselves with these atrocious acts as being work of their fellow Muslims.


There was evidence, then later an admission from the French government that their intelligence services blew-up and sank 'Rainbow Warrior'. If they had denied the allegations, it would still have been a conspiracy theory.

Woodward and Bernstein would have never brought down Nixon if they held the view that just because he'd taken his oath to 'defend and uphold the constitution', he wouldn't then rip it up. Without the internet or mobile 'phones they investigated their story to reveal the unbelievable.

Oh, BTW, Britain is involved in extra rendition. Conspiracy theory? No, not Blair and Brown. Not us, we wear the 'White Hats' don't you know.    

Jamrie wrote:
I'm sure that there are still a lot of questions to be answered, but untill someone can come up with proof of US involvement then I shall remain blaming the Al-Qaeda regime.


Innocent until proven guilty, I approve of that. But don't ask questions, particularly difficult or embarasing ones? NO CHANCE!
Merak

shagpile wrote:
Merak wrote:
Nope. Can't help. i don't know enough about it either. But what I dont' believe is that the US gov flew planes into the WTC, then brought the towers down using explosives as an insurance job/excuse to go to war with afghanistan.


Fair dues, but can I ask you Merak, have you watched 'Loose Change'?

I used to be of the oppinion these were all terrorist attacks, now I have serious misgivings because of questions the film raises. The reason I ask if you have watched 'Loose Change' is you don't have any difficulty in believing, frankly, the unbelievable.


Not sure if I've seen that. I did watch something about the wtc, although I can't remember what it was called, and it went into various things about it all that just didnt' seem to add up.  But then, the more that doesn't add up lends weight to it being for real imo - for something of that magnitude to have been planned, I think there'd have been very little that didn't add up.  In fact, if everything about it did add up, then that in itself would be cause for consipracy claims on the basis that it was "too perfect" no doubt.
maria143

Yeah...I know what you mean...all those people coorporating to die burned and jumping of the roof...out the window....Oh waite your movie clip didn't have that...

Could be the US Newsreport added them in...that could be it...and the subway and station that killed everyone in it and some of the police and fireman that were down there trying to help and they were inside the buildings too....what troopers...what we do for our country and without the 100 virgins waiting in heaven for us.....

Well I guess that was enough of good deed...Now lets make sure to cripple the economy...We will blame that on...Hold let me think and then we borrow money to start a war....Yes...your right how could anyone think otherwise.....
Merak

here's another little clip for the people who think it was all staged:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58h0LjdMry0&feature=related

But really, does anybody think that the United States of America - a world superpower, would deliberately humiliate itself by flying planes into the world trade centre then bring them down with explosives, just so that it could blame it on terrorists and have an excuse to go to war with Afghanistan?  As a nation, the U.S doesn't do humiliation, far less a self inflicted variety to blame on some bloke called bin laden that most us had never heard of beforehand.  
Des

I dont believe that America actually flew the planes into the towers but I strongly believe that they knew it was going to happen & used it as a reason to go to war & much more..There is too much left unexplained by the powers that be..
NY Fireman heard explosions going off in the towers,no footage of the plane hitting the pentagon & much,much more that hasn't been explained..
Merak

The pentagon is another thing.  What was the point of that if it was all staged? The whole thing has by and large centred around the WTC insomuch that you could be forgiven for not knowing about the pentagon one.
Des

They are linked though Merak as part of the 9/11 attack..The point of the Pentagon attack?, well its seen as a symbol of Americas national security & attacking the Pentagon is as good as a full-scale attack on the US ( Georgie Boys words not mine )..

Then there is the memo telling high up govt officials not to fly on that day..Come on Merak it smells rotten & there are no answers coming that convince me otherwise
Democracy & freedom of speech, you gotta love it
shagpile

Merak wrote:
Not sure if I've seen that. I did watch something about the wtc, although I can't remember what it was called, and it went into various things about it all that just didnt' seem to add up.  But then, the more that doesn't add up lends weight to it being for real imo - for something of that magnitude to have been planned, I think there'd have been very little that didn't add up.  In fact, if everything about it did add up, then that in itself would be cause for consipracy claims on the basis that it was "too perfect" no doubt.


Restore to default setting, ie: Why would they do that to themselves?

Just imagine for one nano second, if you would please.... What if they would/could? Then look again at the events.

If you still believe they wouldn't do it to their own, I respectfully suggest you will always hold that view.
shagpile

Merak wrote:
to blame on some bloke called bin laden that most us had never heard of beforehand.  


Again I reiterrate, OBL is not wanted by the FBI with regard to the terror plot, not any part of it.

The 'YouTube' link you've posted confirms that WT7; in expert oppinion, was demolished. Yet the official view is that the building collapsed because of fire!

Dropped penny the has...........
shagpile

Merak wrote:
The pentagon is another thing.  What was the point of that if it was all staged? The whole thing has by and large centred around the WTC insomuch that you could be forgiven for not knowing about the pentagon one.


No Merak, it's the same thing. The same 'attack'. The same loss of innocent lives. And now you know about it, don't you want to investigate it with the open mind that, this democracy 'under attack' allows you the privelege to do?

You've read it on this thread..... The most believable bit that is that WTCs 1 & 2, collapsed after being hit by two hi-jacked commercial aircraft. Not because of a mere fire. The latter would be too unbelievable. So the former takes precedence over any other scenario to the exclusion of all else.

Do you fear anyone of Asian appearance now? If not, it's not worked (completely) on you yet.

The toughest funeral I've ever attended (apart from my dad) was that of my best mate "B". He took his own life. There was no drunk driver to blame, no incompetent surgeon, no natural cause. Just himself.

It's easier with some (particularly nasty) someone/else to blame.
shagpile

maria143 wrote:
Yeah...I know what you mean...all those people coorporating to die burned and jumping of the roof...out the window....Oh waite your movie clip didn't have that...

Could be the US Newsreport added them in...that could be it...and the subway and station that killed everyone in it and some of the police and fireman that were down there trying to help and they were inside the buildings too....what troopers...what we do for our country and without the 100 virgins waiting in heaven for us.....

Well I guess that was enough of good deed...Now lets make sure to cripple the economy...We will blame that on...Hold let me think and then we borrow money to start a war....Yes...your right how could anyone think otherwise.....


Victims, not co-conspiracists.

News reports from the time of the events contradict the accepted 'embedded' version.

BTW, GW's handling of the US econnomy has been superb has it not? No wonder Republicans attack Obama over his middle name.  
Jamrie

shagpile wrote:
Merak wrote:
to blame on some bloke called bin laden that most us had never heard of beforehand.  


Again I reiterrate, OBL is not wanted by the FBI with regard to the terror plot, not any part of it.

The 'YouTube' link you've posted confirms that WT7; in expert oppinion, was demolished. Yet the official view is that the building collapsed because of fire!

Dropped penny the has...........


Be that as it may, perhaps it's not the FBI that wants OBL, but someone in government does.
With a senate vote of 87 to 1, they voted to set a reward of US$50million for the capture, or information leading to his capture for the crime of his involvement in attacking US interests.
shagpile

Jamrie wrote:
Be that as it may, perhaps it's not the FBI that wants OBL, but someone in government does.
With a senate vote of 87 to 1, they voted to set a reward of US$50million for the capture, or information leading to his capture for the crime of his involvement in attacking US interests.


Well nobody in the CIA seems to be willing to step foreward to receive this reward Jamrie, because according to released information. He has received and continues to receive medical treatment at US Military hospitals in Dubai and Afghanistan.

The US government did not investigate 9/11, but the FBI did. To be fair though, the US government did publish their investigation into 9/11. Not very joined up government in the USA eh?  
Jamrie

I'm not disputing your post because I simply don't know the facts, although I must admit that I do find it rather strange that a person with a US$ 50million bounty on his head is being treated by the same people who have issued a warrant for his arrest.

I know that he was medically treated by the US in 1996 and 98, well before he was wanted for crimes against humanity.

To say that he is presently receiving medical treatment in US military hospitals in Dubai and Afghanistan really beggers belief, especially when one considers that forces in both Afghanistan and Pakistan are continually scouring the area in an effort to winkle him out.

Can you give me the source of your information.

If this is indeed true, then this must be the US biggest c***-up ever.
shagpile

Jamrie wrote:
To say that he is presently receiving medical treatment in US military hospitals in Dubai and Afghanistan really beggers belief, especially when one considers that forces in both Afghanistan and Pakistan are continually scouring the area in an effort to winkle him out.

Can you give me the source of your information.

If this is indeed true, then this must be the US biggest c***-up ever.


Jamrie, it's some of the featured info on 'Loose Change'. If you go to their official site, you will have no problem downloading the info, there are several alternative sites. I am not aware if he still recieves treatment though.
Merak

shagpile wrote:
Merak wrote:
The pentagon is another thing.  What was the point of that if it was all staged? The whole thing has by and large centred around the WTC insomuch that you could be forgiven for not knowing about the pentagon one.


No Merak, it's the same thing. The same 'attack'.


lol.  I know it was the same attack, but what I was doing when I said "that's another thing" was using the term of phrase "that's another thing" ie something else I want to add on, rather than meaning something completely different, if you see what I mean? So, what I'm saying is that if the gov's idea was to bring down the world trade centre then there wasn't really any point in doing the pentagon thing as well.  The WTC would've been excuse enough.
Des

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shagpile

Merak wrote:
lol.  I know it was the same attack, but what I was doing when I said "that's another thing" was using the term of phrase "that's another thing" ie something else I want to add on, rather than meaning something completely different, if you see what I mean? So, what I'm saying is that if the gov's idea was to bring down the world trade centre then there wasn't really any point in doing the pentagon thing as well.  The WTC would've been excuse enough.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html

It needed a 'Pearl Harbour' type of attack to further the (then) aims of Cuban invasion. OIL was the reason for 911, to justify the Iraq invasion and 'regime change'. Have you got it yet Merak?

PS Do you think GW would have been a better president to handle the Cuban Missile Crisis than JFK?

PPS Do you have a favourite Bushism? Mine is "We gotta do something about these suicide bombers, not only are they a danger to themselves.... (but to other people)"!
maria143

Merak wrote:
The pentagon is another thing.  What was the point of that if it was all staged? The whole thing has by and large centred around the WTC insomuch that you could be forgiven for not knowing about the pentagon one.


Or the rest of the pentagon that is below ground....But I remember it like yesturday, Living work picking up my kids....taking money out of the bank...filling gas tank....it was like preparing for a hurricane...I know it sounds stupid...but I couldn't help it....

Later we found out that some of the terrorist took their flying lessons in in Miami at the Opa Locka Airport 2 to 3 miles from my house...

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